Part of the issue of the clericalization of the laity, is we don't have a good definition of things that are reserved to the clergy. It used to be that anything done in the sanctuary was the domain of the clergy. I think this lack of a definition, is why the Church struggles with how to fully make use of permanent deacons.
I think the abolition of the minor orders was a mistake. There were clear roles (Porter, Lector, Exorcist, Acolyte, subdeacon) that allowed men to help with administrative matters of the church.
The eastern churches still have the minor orders, and they are typically the only ones who are in charge of the administrative duties of the parish along with the deacons and priests.
Our parish laity had more freedom to welcome new guests, an active coffee & doughnuts with 50+ people staying every week, have an unofficial official young adult group, and a volunteer group to do catechesis.
We all knew we can go to sub-deacon for any questions about funding and organization. The subdeacon helped our pastor worry about the sacramental matters and big financial duties of the parish.
It was a mistake, because historically that is what the minor orders were for. However, the 1917 code of Canon Law restricted the Minor Orders only to those on the way to the priesthood. By the time of Vatican II, they were merely rights of passage onto the way to the priesthood.
Anytime a person is made to pay for something, they are going to begin to view it as a product or service and have certain expectations based on what they’re being made to pay. Catholic school and CCD will just always have this dynamic.
Very true. Going back to the minor orders - historically one was not supposed to even be made a cleric unless there was a benefice to support that cleric. So all clergy should be paid for their time. It is odd to me that permanent deacons are generally unpaid volunteers (at least in the US).
As someone who leans more traditional I always wanted parishes to do more Sacred Music.
So one day I decided to just do it. I started off doing Solemn Vespers, then Saturday morning daily masses during lent.
Just recently I did a talk on the creed at a parish event and my opening prayer was chanting the whole creed. I took the opportunity to explain a bit about Sacred Music and how it’s used in the Church as a primer before doing the chant.
The feedback has only been positive.
It’s way more life giving to be part of the building instead of only consuming.
Patrick, I wonder if when Scripture says that we (the laity) are a royal priesthood and holy nation, that we took it literally.
I think that there’s an argument to be made from a comment earlier about the minor orders offering members of the laity a place in the hierarchy. But alternatively, Cdl Newman also made the argument that he believed a well educated and well formed lay Catholic would be able to best defend the Church and Family from attacks.
I suspect that Christ might see us, the laity, in both ways: the expectation to pay, pray and obey, but also be leaders and evangelists in our communities (both Secular and Ecclesial). How do you fight against evil or lukewarm Bishops and Pastors if you are not engaged in both prayer AND leadership? How do you fight with the Good Bishops and Pastors if you’re not engaged in prayer and leadership under their guidance (since they can’t do everything)?
My parish is TLM, but during the week I attend an NO church. At the close of every Mass, I sing, in Latin a Marian antiphon. No guitars just me thanking our Lady. The congregation comes to expect it. This is or was a very liberal parish, so if you want change just do it!
I worked in parish ministry for eleven years, quitting after my fifth was born. Now, I feel ready to dive in again and teach, but we’re no longer at the parish I worked at and I don’t want to take on a full or part time job. I’ve offered myself to those in charge of OCIA, various ministries and even to our priest—sharing a bit of my background running RCIA for over a decade and having grad school level education in theology—but have not been taken up on anything. Maybe it’s not my time? I see some big gaps in catechesis at our parish, where our priest is pushing the “four foundation stones” (mass, rosary, adoration and confession)—which is GREAT!—but there’s not a lot of effort to catechize those already in the pews who need a deeper understanding of these foundations. The assumption is everyone understands and is easily able to make changes to participate…but in my experience, so many Catholics who finally receive formation (for example, by sponsoring someone coming into the church) always say, “Why did I never learn this??” To me it seems like those in charge of certain programs don’t want the help…they’re “covered.” Not always easy to break through to help! Anyways. Thanks for this. Love hearing your thoughts.
Part of the issue of the clericalization of the laity, is we don't have a good definition of things that are reserved to the clergy. It used to be that anything done in the sanctuary was the domain of the clergy. I think this lack of a definition, is why the Church struggles with how to fully make use of permanent deacons.
I think the abolition of the minor orders was a mistake. There were clear roles (Porter, Lector, Exorcist, Acolyte, subdeacon) that allowed men to help with administrative matters of the church.
The eastern churches still have the minor orders, and they are typically the only ones who are in charge of the administrative duties of the parish along with the deacons and priests.
Our parish laity had more freedom to welcome new guests, an active coffee & doughnuts with 50+ people staying every week, have an unofficial official young adult group, and a volunteer group to do catechesis.
We all knew we can go to sub-deacon for any questions about funding and organization. The subdeacon helped our pastor worry about the sacramental matters and big financial duties of the parish.
It was a mistake, because historically that is what the minor orders were for. However, the 1917 code of Canon Law restricted the Minor Orders only to those on the way to the priesthood. By the time of Vatican II, they were merely rights of passage onto the way to the priesthood.
Anytime a person is made to pay for something, they are going to begin to view it as a product or service and have certain expectations based on what they’re being made to pay. Catholic school and CCD will just always have this dynamic.
Very true. Going back to the minor orders - historically one was not supposed to even be made a cleric unless there was a benefice to support that cleric. So all clergy should be paid for their time. It is odd to me that permanent deacons are generally unpaid volunteers (at least in the US).
As someone who leans more traditional I always wanted parishes to do more Sacred Music.
So one day I decided to just do it. I started off doing Solemn Vespers, then Saturday morning daily masses during lent.
Just recently I did a talk on the creed at a parish event and my opening prayer was chanting the whole creed. I took the opportunity to explain a bit about Sacred Music and how it’s used in the Church as a primer before doing the chant.
The feedback has only been positive.
It’s way more life giving to be part of the building instead of only consuming.
This is what I’m talking about. Maybe should do more case study stuff where I interview people who meaningfully changed their parish
Patrick, I wonder if when Scripture says that we (the laity) are a royal priesthood and holy nation, that we took it literally.
I think that there’s an argument to be made from a comment earlier about the minor orders offering members of the laity a place in the hierarchy. But alternatively, Cdl Newman also made the argument that he believed a well educated and well formed lay Catholic would be able to best defend the Church and Family from attacks.
I suspect that Christ might see us, the laity, in both ways: the expectation to pay, pray and obey, but also be leaders and evangelists in our communities (both Secular and Ecclesial). How do you fight against evil or lukewarm Bishops and Pastors if you are not engaged in both prayer AND leadership? How do you fight with the Good Bishops and Pastors if you’re not engaged in prayer and leadership under their guidance (since they can’t do everything)?
My parish is TLM, but during the week I attend an NO church. At the close of every Mass, I sing, in Latin a Marian antiphon. No guitars just me thanking our Lady. The congregation comes to expect it. This is or was a very liberal parish, so if you want change just do it!
I worked in parish ministry for eleven years, quitting after my fifth was born. Now, I feel ready to dive in again and teach, but we’re no longer at the parish I worked at and I don’t want to take on a full or part time job. I’ve offered myself to those in charge of OCIA, various ministries and even to our priest—sharing a bit of my background running RCIA for over a decade and having grad school level education in theology—but have not been taken up on anything. Maybe it’s not my time? I see some big gaps in catechesis at our parish, where our priest is pushing the “four foundation stones” (mass, rosary, adoration and confession)—which is GREAT!—but there’s not a lot of effort to catechize those already in the pews who need a deeper understanding of these foundations. The assumption is everyone understands and is easily able to make changes to participate…but in my experience, so many Catholics who finally receive formation (for example, by sponsoring someone coming into the church) always say, “Why did I never learn this??” To me it seems like those in charge of certain programs don’t want the help…they’re “covered.” Not always easy to break through to help! Anyways. Thanks for this. Love hearing your thoughts.